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Improving Tags
Improving Tags
Hello, I recently found this site and I have to admit that I LOVE IT. The idea of these sessions is sooo cool.

However after trying it out a few times and checking out the tags suggestions I found out that most of the tags aren't really for... concepts. I know that this site is still in Beta but I think that, since the Sessions are the primary objective of the site, they should get primary attention. I think that some words like Fantasy and Sci-Fi could drop more often since they are Genre specifications. Also, sometimes I get Environment words for Characters/Creatures and the other way around which is quite annoying (Cavalry in creature, Farm for character, etc.). Words like "sideburns" "spin" "earrings" "last" are too specific and there isn't much to design in them.. and the primary objective after all is design ^^ I know that these are for training primarily but it would be much more fun to train on something more enjoyable than on something random or boring.
I also noticed that some tags were rejected, tags like "Beast" and I wondered why? It's a pretty regular yet cool tag. Just like tags like bird and such.

The basic tags are actually a lot cooler for design than the weird ones. It's up to the artist to turn a regular thing into something awesome and cool. What I see in here http://www.conceptart.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1764989&d=1366031815 for example is simply Beast, Gigantic (Enormous, Strong, etc.). You don't need any random tags like Intimidation or Loving to get in the way of design.
Replies:
RE: Improving Tags
you can always add some tags yourself! But I do agree that it might be better to use more general words, but since everyone can add them it's almost impossible to please everyone.
RE: Improving Tags
Yes pretty much but still, stuff like Loving or Caring just don't fit into a concept much.
It could be just me, I guess people like these kind of stuff ^^

Probably it's not the tags but more like the combinations. The tags aren't very well connected with each other. I tried making a few Tag Combinations myself and it was pretty hard to find the words needed to make a good combination. After randomizing 20 times you kind of give up and pick a random word which could "do the work". So, a good feature would be to add a Tag Search in the combinations or something like that.
RE: Improving Tags
Hey thanks for the feedback! We agree very much that the quality of the tags is one of the most important things for CAS.

I think that the biggest issue of the tag-generator right now is that it doesn't make a distinction between different categories of tags. For example: Fantasy could be in the "style" category and Loving in the "characteristic" category. If tags would be categorized in this way we could set key-categories for topics such as Character, making the tag-generator output at least one tag out of a key-category. We could achieve something like this by adding an additional tool to the Improve Tags tools where you could drag a bunch of tags into a category.

In addition we could also create a voting tool where individual tags get compared and ordered by how much you like them. This way Earrings might get down-voted, and something like Beastly would get up-voted. With these statistics we could make the tag-generator give at least one popular tag in a session making sure we don't get 2 or 3 boring tags.

Also, we currently have no way to down-vote tag-connections. This is why we're planning on adding a tool that'll popup when regenerating the tags in a session that let you select the tags you dislike.

We're also planning on adding a Tag Popup where users can review some more info about a single tag. You can find more info about the Tag Popup here.

Let us know what you think about our ideas ! :D
RE: Improving Tags
I like these ideas you have, I'm sure that they'll fix the tag issues. And the tag Popup seems quite fun hehe ^^ Especially this part "The number of pieces using this Tag"

One more "problem" I want to refer to is the Improve Tags tab - currently the "Suggest a tag" works quite well, it shows you whether a tag exists or not and also shows similar tags so that you don't repeat a tag. But the "Make tag connections" is quite annoying. You have to re-roll the tags a lot of times before you even get similar words to the one you chose, so it's quite hard to suggest good connections. It's not a major issue but by allowing the users to suggest tag connections you will get more work done in less time; more hand-made connections and less program generated ones.
I'm not sure how hard it is to program that but a "Tag Search", as I suggested above, would be a good way to fix it.


edit: oh and, is it possible to delete useless tags? Like "nose" "new" "last" and such? The Tag dislike button will never really remove a tag, just make the "drop-rate" (too much gaming) lower.

I can actually find a few uses for these tags but I doubt they will ever merge in the correct order, even after you fix the Tag Connections generator. For example "Last" and "Survivor" works, but.. "Last" as a whole can't connect well with other tags.
RE: Improving Tags
As of right now I have submitted 75% of all tags and 63% of all tag connection submissions. I think that might be one of the reasons why you think tags don't match very well. The current tag database is for a big part part shaped from one mind, and I guess my way of thinking is not entirely compatible with yours.

Let me share some of my thoughts, not to critique you, but to share my way of thinking a little more.


I agree Sideburns and Earrings are not the best tags, but they have their place. As does Nose. When I would get the Nose tag I do not think "draw something with a nose," but "make a design in which the nose is important." For example by making the nose very big or making it glow red or whatever.
As for Cavalry for creature and Farm for character, I think they should stay too. A Cavalry creature implies to me that it's a mountable creature used for the military or warfare. And a character that lives or works on a Farm would be designed a lot different from most characters without the Farm tag.

I also agree some of the rejected tags should be reassessed. I agree with most of my tags that got rejected, or at least I understand why, but some tags I kinda liked got rejected months back that are not very different from tags that are accepted today. I do keep a list of those to throw at Joris and Isabella sooner or later, but I have not yet made the effort to make a topic about it.

I agree tags in the tag connection tool are hard to connect. Ever since the (totally awesome) Reroll feature was added I usually spend a lot of time sifting through dozens upon dozens of tags to make one kinda decent connection set.
I was thinking one time perhaps the tags should not be entirely random. One way to make the tags more relevant would be to let the system make a list of all tags already connected to the ones you selected, and make the tags connected to those in the list appear more often. Or tags that are already connected to some but not all of the selected tags. This would both make making connection more easy, and make it easier for big webs of connections to form. Except, for the sake of variation maybe make half of the tags "smart" tags and half totally random. Otherwise some tag groups will grow far too slow.

Also, Joris, whenever you add tag categories please make it so at least two or three tags are action or event tags when you make a Scene tag connection. (or maybe for each tag a chance of one out of three or four?) Those tags tend to get drowned by the character and environment tags, so this fix would make connecting for scenes a lot easier. Thanks!
RE: Improving Tags
I agree with all you say Raizin! The Scene would definitely get a big boost from key-categories.
RE: Improving Tags
Well I know that tags like nose and earrings can be used, I did say so.. but they are way too specific and when matched incorrectly they become useless or even harmful.
Also farm is for environment and farmer for a character. Cavalry is for a horse rider not a horse, meaning that Rideable should be used for creature instead of cavalry. Sometimes these little details are confusing, because what I imagine from cavalry is an epic, say, Rohan rider or something not the creature which obi wan was riding in star wars episode 3 :p. I'll give an example I got because I don't want to make up some random stuff I don't know even exist so, here it is: Tobacco, Father and Farm. When I got this I could think of a merchant who sells tobacco, but then he also had to be a farmer.. and a father. Father of who? So, when getting 3 random tags it really confuses you, it is one of these designs which has to be specificated to be fully understood. And also, you cant interpret it in your own way, cuz there isn't much to design in something normal like this. All these 3 words are too ordinary and all of them exist in the human world. And in the end I didn't really design something on theme, I just drew what I felt like was close to the theme. I guess it could be just the tag connections, not the tags. And even if these tags are useful combined with other good tags, they still have to be reorganized in my opinion - Farm to move to Environment and Farmer to Character, Cavalry to Character and Riding/Rideable to Creature, Father and Mother would probably fit more with a creature (like mothership stuff or the spider queen, etc.), cuz with Character they are way too ... useless.
RE: Improving Tags
Oh I just remembered, I had an idea concerning the reassessment of tags. Maybe a while after a tag got rejected (a month or so?), allow users to resubmit the tag from the tag suggestion tool, and every time it gets rejected increase the time before it's available for resubmission again. (e.g. 1 month, then 3, then 6, 12, 18...) An option to leave a short note why you think the tag should be approved might be a good idea too.

This allows users a way to give input when they disagree about a tag rejection, but the increase of "cooldown" on the decision prevents the possibility of admins from being spammed the same rejected tags each month.


I would also like a way to view what topics are connected to a tag with a way to suggest changes. Because sometimes I'm trying to add a tag that has multiple meanings that fit different topics, but I find it's already an approved tag, which makes me worry whether all meanings I have in mind were considered when it was first submitted.

For example, Fan has various meanings. It can mean a fanatic (like a fan of a music band) which is only really applicable to Characters and Scenes, or a hand fan which would be a character accessory, or an electric fan which only fit Environments and Vehicles. When I want to add the Fan tag with electric fans in mind but it's already an approved tag, I have no way to know whether environments and vehicles are already associated with the tag or if it's only a character and/or scene tag. And even if I knew there's no way to request a change.
RE: Improving Tags
Oh yes words with multiple meanings, I hadn't though of those before.
RE: Improving Tags
Also farm is for environment and farmer for a character.- Mephisto

I do think Farm for a character is more open for different designs than Farmer. Tags for characters might also be about his/her past.. like he or she is coming from a farm, or is staying over, or might have stolen something from the farm.
RE: Improving Tags
I had an idea concerning the reassessment of tags.- Raizin

This sounds like a wonderful idea! I'll add it to the list!

I would also like a way to view what topics are connected to a tag with a way to suggest changes.- Raizin

This will be able when we add the Tag Popup! I'm also seeing this as comments that can be posted on a tag, certain discussions that can follow on specific tags whether they should be included into other categories.

I think it would also be wise to add a section in the Improve Tags page where some help/tips is given about the tags and connections.
RE: Improving Tags
Hmm but that is way too specific for a design. How will you design such a thing? We're talking about artwork here not storytelling ^^ What if you picked 30 min or 2 hours for this? You won't have time to draw a background behind the character (a decent one) unless you're a real pro.. and since this site is about people who are levelling their skills here I doubt there will be any pros like Feng Zhu :X All these non-physical tags are hard to represent, stuff like Father, Farm Past, etc. Stuff like Terror/Terrific, Evil/Good are still non-physical yet easy to represent. Just add spikes to the creature and make it black and here it is: Evil.
RE: Improving Tags
I'm not sure if we're "not" doing storytelling here. I think Concept Art should tell a story through artwork and designs, not just draw pretty pictures. You have to translate an idea and use art as your language ^^
RE: Improving Tags
There are some users here that like to write short background stories in their descriptions. Aendromeda, for example. [Here] is one of her pieces with a backstory, and for [this one] you only really understand some tags fit the creature after you read the description.

And besides, Scenes are all about storytelling.
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